Stephen - You captured my intent perfectly. And here’s my “note to self,” If I focus on my question to you, “Were they (Bickle et al) rotten from the beginning?” I WILL MISS the bigger picture. It doesn’t matter because harm emerges regardless of intent. I have to step away from the symptom and look at the cause. Your statement in regard to the constructive fraud “ (it) may be the message itself, not necessarily a deliberate lie, but a structure that produces the same results. We often believe every word said, but sincerity does not prevent the system from functioning. And this is the kicker.... “It lubricates it.” We begin as participant, progress to leader, sustain the structure…. God have mercy on us all
Cindy — I’m glad to hear I understood what you were getting at. And I think your instinct about not losing sight of the larger pattern is an important one.
At the same time, I still find myself wanting to look carefully at the role Mike Bickle and other IHOPKC leaders played in shaping that pattern. The prophetic history surrounding the movement didn’t simply develop on its own. It was told, reinforced, and at points deliberately framed in ways that helped authorize the institution and organize people’s time, trust, and resources.
I hope nothing in the piece induced guilt. At the same time, I was encouraged by the way you ended your comment. “God have mercy on us all” acknowledges that questions like this don’t stop with evaluating leaders. It reminded me that those who are most aware of their own need for mercy are often the ones who extend it most readily to others. I appreciate the seriousness with which you’re thinking about all of this. Stephen
Oh my gosh I feel absolutely nothing akin to guilt at all. Just the opposite. Grateful to be able to see the deception and perfectly happy to repent, grow up and move on. My outrage has led me to curiosity, has led me to research and given me a bit of understanding. I find The William Branham Historical Research podcast very helpful in getting down to the roots of what you and I were a part of. If I understand the podcaster John Collins correctly the "root was rotten to the core." It makes sense to me. The journey continues....
I’ve always felt like an outsider looking in. Not fitting the mold. People all around me get sucked into their imaginary portals and freaky supposed encounters, fake gold & gems, insane laughter, crazy tales of all sorts, worshipping mere mortals as if gods, and I stand back wondering why and how seemingly intelligent human beings can be so easily manipulated and sucked in. It’s frightening.
Nice work! Your explication of the power dynamics within an organization by which a person becomes comfortable with a system, a set of assumptions, teachings, and accepts them as truth, then rises to greater and greater responsibility, becoming increasingly complicit in whatever harms some members of the organization may engage in is a strong caution that we need to be constantly vigilant in examining the basis for our beliefs, and have a willingness to pay attention, be vigilant, about the interactions that are going on around us. Particularly so if we are actually involved in some aspect of governance or supervision.
You’re on to something — how does “near truth” or “sounds like but isn’t truth” get rolling and increase like a snowball rolling down hill that creates a destructive Avalanche?
I like the new concept: Speculation Theory. I think much of life should fall into the "speculation theory" category. How different would church history look if there had been a bit more room for speculative theorizing. Indeed, many theological concepts need to be held in the tension of "more than one thing being true at once".
But that got me thinking about the central thesis of your latest post (at least as I understood it). Is the belief in prophecy - or perhaps more specifically prophecy that gives privileged information about someone else's life - a harmful religious conviction?
Certainly the potential for abuse is enormous. But what if it exists? Perhaps not as the norm, but as an exceptional experience. Is the belief in the possibility of such prophecy harmful in and of itself? Or is it the un-discerning belief in such prophecy (or naive belief perhaps)?
Personally, I am doubtful of such prophetic claims from the get-go. I've seen too much abuse and too much well-intended nonsense do unintended harm - exactly as you described. But I am wary to shut the door completely. I put it in a place one might well call Speculation Theory. :)
Human behavior seldom changes unless one does the work to understand how the subconscious operates and how to reprogram the subconscious loop, which acts out into the conscious mind. Bickle and too many other “leaders” (not just in the Church) have little understanding of how the subconscious operates and so their beliefs, thoughts and actions transfer to their offspring, friends and strangers.
Stephen - You captured my intent perfectly. And here’s my “note to self,” If I focus on my question to you, “Were they (Bickle et al) rotten from the beginning?” I WILL MISS the bigger picture. It doesn’t matter because harm emerges regardless of intent. I have to step away from the symptom and look at the cause. Your statement in regard to the constructive fraud “ (it) may be the message itself, not necessarily a deliberate lie, but a structure that produces the same results. We often believe every word said, but sincerity does not prevent the system from functioning. And this is the kicker.... “It lubricates it.” We begin as participant, progress to leader, sustain the structure…. God have mercy on us all
Cindy — I’m glad to hear I understood what you were getting at. And I think your instinct about not losing sight of the larger pattern is an important one.
At the same time, I still find myself wanting to look carefully at the role Mike Bickle and other IHOPKC leaders played in shaping that pattern. The prophetic history surrounding the movement didn’t simply develop on its own. It was told, reinforced, and at points deliberately framed in ways that helped authorize the institution and organize people’s time, trust, and resources.
I hope nothing in the piece induced guilt. At the same time, I was encouraged by the way you ended your comment. “God have mercy on us all” acknowledges that questions like this don’t stop with evaluating leaders. It reminded me that those who are most aware of their own need for mercy are often the ones who extend it most readily to others. I appreciate the seriousness with which you’re thinking about all of this. Stephen
Oh my gosh I feel absolutely nothing akin to guilt at all. Just the opposite. Grateful to be able to see the deception and perfectly happy to repent, grow up and move on. My outrage has led me to curiosity, has led me to research and given me a bit of understanding. I find The William Branham Historical Research podcast very helpful in getting down to the roots of what you and I were a part of. If I understand the podcaster John Collins correctly the "root was rotten to the core." It makes sense to me. The journey continues....
I’ve always felt like an outsider looking in. Not fitting the mold. People all around me get sucked into their imaginary portals and freaky supposed encounters, fake gold & gems, insane laughter, crazy tales of all sorts, worshipping mere mortals as if gods, and I stand back wondering why and how seemingly intelligent human beings can be so easily manipulated and sucked in. It’s frightening.
Nice work! Your explication of the power dynamics within an organization by which a person becomes comfortable with a system, a set of assumptions, teachings, and accepts them as truth, then rises to greater and greater responsibility, becoming increasingly complicit in whatever harms some members of the organization may engage in is a strong caution that we need to be constantly vigilant in examining the basis for our beliefs, and have a willingness to pay attention, be vigilant, about the interactions that are going on around us. Particularly so if we are actually involved in some aspect of governance or supervision.
You’re on to something — how does “near truth” or “sounds like but isn’t truth” get rolling and increase like a snowball rolling down hill that creates a destructive Avalanche?
I like the new concept: Speculation Theory. I think much of life should fall into the "speculation theory" category. How different would church history look if there had been a bit more room for speculative theorizing. Indeed, many theological concepts need to be held in the tension of "more than one thing being true at once".
But that got me thinking about the central thesis of your latest post (at least as I understood it). Is the belief in prophecy - or perhaps more specifically prophecy that gives privileged information about someone else's life - a harmful religious conviction?
Certainly the potential for abuse is enormous. But what if it exists? Perhaps not as the norm, but as an exceptional experience. Is the belief in the possibility of such prophecy harmful in and of itself? Or is it the un-discerning belief in such prophecy (or naive belief perhaps)?
Personally, I am doubtful of such prophetic claims from the get-go. I've seen too much abuse and too much well-intended nonsense do unintended harm - exactly as you described. But I am wary to shut the door completely. I put it in a place one might well call Speculation Theory. :)
Human behavior seldom changes unless one does the work to understand how the subconscious operates and how to reprogram the subconscious loop, which acts out into the conscious mind. Bickle and too many other “leaders” (not just in the Church) have little understanding of how the subconscious operates and so their beliefs, thoughts and actions transfer to their offspring, friends and strangers.