Thank you for writing this and for being thorough in your response. Thank you for your vulnerability and courage to stand up and raise your voice. I was newly arrived at IHOPKC when Paul Cain was being confronted and exposed. The whole thing touched me in such a deep way and meaningful way. I was only 24 years old. I ended up saying apart of the Nightwatch staff for 6 years and then 2 years as part of Hope City. I left just as an internal bomb was taking place. Some of my dearest friends were at the center of the conflict. I was heartbroken that leadership treated my friends with such opposition of disrespect, meanness and anger. All in the name of truth. But it wasn’t about truth. It was about control. I was tired when I left. Tired of religion. I was depressed. Tormented by the heavy yoke of pious teaching such as the “need for voluntary lovers.” I needed restoration, healing and rest from the abusive nature of the community at IHOP. It took me 7 years to feel fully recovered. Nearly took me a year of healing for a year of ministry on staff there. I went to years of therapy and stayed on the outskirts of leadership in any church community that I was apart of. I never even thought to mention to my closest and dearest friends what I was going through those years until a month ago. It just goes to show the level of intrusion into my personal life Mike’s leadership had. Even after all the years of torment that finally resulted in my deliverance and healing from a religious spirit, it took me 20 years to realize it was ok to tell my friends what I went through during my time on staff. I only full realized it when Jane Doe came forward in October 2023. For this, I am grateful. The exposure finally gave me the freedom to renounce Mike Bickle’s authority in my life as well as that of leaders under him. A weight I hadn’t realized I was carrying lifted. I’ve felt vindicated and validated that I was being dramatic for disagreeing with things I saw going on there during my time. I felt validated in a fresh way for the pain I processed and shed. I feel deep sadness for all those that I know and love who are still there and who are slowing rising from the ashes. We need your voice. I am grateful. I forgive you for not taking the stand you felt in your heart years ago. I release you from unintentionally overlooking Mike’s red flags. Any one of us involved with him and his ministries have fallen to his charm and whatever else has been at work. I do not hold you responsible. I’m just grateful for the Light that has brought exposure. God is wise and is helping us all. Now, it’s time for all of us involved to call for Stuart Greaves, Dave Sliker and Lenny LaGuardia to come forward. They must own their mistakes. They must publicly repent for mishandling this situation and they MUST be willing to expose themselves in the parts they’ve played whatever they may be. Otherwise, we are all doomed to assume the worst of them and they put us who were under them in a place of a longer process of healing than is necessary. Yes, let just roll like a river and a never ending stream. God, help us.
I forgot to mention that it’s been curious to me how the exposure of Paul Cain has hardly been brought up in light of MB being exposed. I’ve long been waiting to hear what someone has to say about it in context to our current situation. Again, thank you. This is a kindness and comfort.
Jack, thank you for being brave and going public. But there is one thing that really concerns me. Mike Bickle's abusive behavior goes back to the 1980s. In the intervening 40 years, he must have met thousands of leaders from the worldwide charismatic movement. Yet no-one had a prophetic revelation or word of knowledge that, behind closed doors, Bickle was a sexual predator. What does that say about the continuationist belief that the supernatural gifts are active today? If the people who claim to be models of "spirit-filled" Christianity can't "do the stuff", to use John Wimber's famous phrase, it suggests that, in reality, no-one can.
Dave, great point! The same thing happened with Todd Bentley. During Lakeland “revival,” many charismatic apostles gave magnificent words over TB while he was committing adultery and doing drugs/alcohol. Where was their supernatural discernment?!? God didn’t speak to even one of these super apostles?
And there was very little spoken introspection from the rest of the charismatic US crowd. It wasn’t addressed nationally except for 2-3 people in that circle.
I am not a cessationist *and* I have very level of mistrust in current charismatic leadership and their “words” because of these continuous issues.
Thanks, Sandra, yes, I am aware of what happened with Todd Bentley. I think with him it was a relatively small number of leaders. Mike Bickle's circle of associates must have been vastly more, given that he was the leader of a major ministry for decades, and before that was part of the Vineyard movement. I was a charismatic but became a cessationist following much study - basically I realised that the claims of the charismatic and pentecostal movements are all false and the miraculous gifts are not in operation today. Happy to discuss further if you want.
If the gifts are no longer active then how can you explain the healing I received from chronic headaches. One day, I was living 6 years in daily never ending headaches and couldn’t sleep longer than 6 hours at a time. I received prayer. A few days later the chronic headaches were gone and I could sleep 8+ hours. It’s been 20 years since that healing and I am still free of it. That my brother was most certainly a miracle.
...the thing is with Todd Bentley, the first video I saw of him (2008) he was saying that the same angel that started William Branhams ministry started his. I immediately knew he was off as angels do not start ministries, the Holy Spirit does. Also i knew that William Branham was seriously off, brought dominion theology (latter rain, NAR) into America & had new age practices...
Then I managed to get Todd Bentley's theology off of his web site (it was only there for a few days), he was into Serpent Seed theology and he had some theologian address why it was ok to pray to angels (idolatory, our trust is in Jesus, not angels) using The Angel of The Lord from the OT (who has to be the pre-incarnate Jesus as people worshipped Him).
Then you had Bill Johnson's lot inaugurating Todd Bentley as a prophet, not just any old prophet but an NAR (although I knew he was off I hadnt joined up the dots until 2019 that this was a continuation of dominion theology) prophet with more power than the original 12, no less !! (see Holly Pivecs book - the counterfeit kingdom).
So Bill Johnson and co obviously didnt care one iota what Todd Bentleys theology was (probably because they believe the same). Today you can see it in their new age book The Physics of Heaven, even Bob Jones has a chapter in it entitled Vibrating in harmony with God...
I think NAR are going to be part of the end times apostasy, their dominion beliefs of bringing heaven to earth now BEFORE Jesus returns, ruling everyone through a 7 mountain mandate and very lose denomination structure although tight at the top with no accountability lends itself to this...
Any church can just bring itself under the apostle Bill Johnsons authority or any other apostle who is signed up to their list of apostles...
So there are two sides to the supernatural, unfortunately the other side has made great inrodes into the pentecostal church due to lack of discernment and people speaking out. In my generation there has been an attitude of its wrong to speak out against anyone as that is judging.... while ignoring other accountability scriptures...
Dave, while I understand where you are coming from I have to disagree. The fact that “no one” received a prophetic word about Mike Bickle doesn’t invalidate the gift of prophecy. Paul states that the gift of prophecy is meant for the edification and the building up of the church. That doesn’t make anyone who prophecies a Prophet. We need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. There were people who expressed concerns about MB. They even gave specifics. I cannot begin to try to define why it didn’t work. But I personally did sit for many years under his leadership. I discerned there were things a miss yet is still got caught in that web. Does that invalidate my own ability to hear? Prophecy and discernment require a great amount of wisdom and care. Those attributes take time to build. MB was surrounded by those who were mostly younger than him. That’s a significant point. When I arrived at IHOPKC in 2004, I was older than the majority. Most of MB’s senior leadership were in their 30s and 40s. By the time, IHOP started MB had already been an international minister for 2 decades. So, it’s easy to say that we all should have known. But that’s what ppl also say to a mother who’s husband has been molesting her child for 5 years. “How did you not know?” It’s devastating. We just didn’t know.
Yes they did, not exactly that Bickle was a sexual predator but the Kansas City Prophets wanted Clifford Hill (UK Charismatic) to do the forward to their book ‘Some Said it Thundered’ by David Pytches but he refused as he discerned an evil spirit operating among them especially Bob Jones. He warned John Wimber at the time but he refused to listed, I think he had been too wowed by Cain’s prophecies. The fact is you can also get accurate prophesies from the other side.
Clifford Hill would describe himself as a modern day prophet. It was through his magazine that i became aware of William Branham (brought in dominion theology /latter rain/ NAR) and realised that Paul Cain was a child prodigee of Branham... (back in the 1990's).
Clifford Hill is no cessationist and his church is one of the livest i have visited back in 1983 in Harrow, UK.
I thought dominion theology had gone away and only realised it had morphed into a new name (NAR) in 2019 after Clifford Hill went public after a day of prayer at Wembley.
Also you have Derek Prince who was on stage with William Branham who went public in the 1990s that he believed that Branham moved in the demonic in his book Protection against Deception.
John Andrew Collins historical research shows that Derek Prince and Ernie Baxter separated themselves from Branham, its documented in their Voice of Healing magazine that they found recently.
So definitely the prophetic gifts are there but very few really walk in them. Another person who does i would say is David Hathaway, he accurately prophesied that the Berlin wall would come down. In 2000 he prophesied the rape of europe by Islam which you can see happening today. His You Tube video The Rape of Europe goes into that.
I am sure that Jack would have a theologically and pastorally sound answer for you (I do heartily recommend his books!)
Here are my thoughts: Paul tells us that we know in part and prophesy in part (1 Corinthians 13:8-12). It is not given to prophets to know everything, only what the Lord reveals at a certain time and place in various ways.
Prophetic revelation (what the Lord shows a believer) needs also to be discerned carefully to understand the meaning and application; the Scriptures indicate this should be tested within the body (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22). The intent of prophet ministry is to build up the body (1 Corinthians 14:3-5 indicates some features to expect).
I do believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today, still available as a gift if God’s grace to us (see 1 Corinthians 12:4-11), the emphasis is on the working of the Spirit as he chooses and in us to pursue spiritual gifts. We also need to grow in our abilities to hear and discern. They.
"What does that say about the continuationist belief that the supernatural gifts are active today?"
Excellent question! Here's the possible answers;
1) God didn't care that Mr. Bickle was having sex with teenagers. . . .hence, no prophetic warning!
2) The Gift of Prophecy/Word of Knowledge/Discerning of Spirits isn't for today, so even if God was quite displeased with Mr. Bickle's sexual abuse, there was not anything he could do about it.
3) The Gift of Prophecy/Word of Knowledge/Discerning of Spirits is for today -- but the people surrounding Mr. Bickle, and the "Spiritual Superstars" such as Elite Eight Elect Elders who issued their edict expelling him from the elite SuperSaint category, don't have any of those gifts. . . else they would have raised questions decades ago.
..it has to be number 3. People like Clifford Hill in the UK discerned... he warned John Wimber at the time about an evil spirit operating among the KCP's but he didnt listen..
...i also think people knew without needing any prophetic gift... but many people would have been scared to speak out...
Im in the UK but i knew that Mike Bickle has to be off as he was the minister of the Kansas city prophets who went round prophesying over churches to come under their authority or close. I didnt know about the sexual allegations but I knew that Bickle's moral character could not be that great if he was allowing this to go on...
We had Ernie Gruens report that brought this out. It sounds like it wasnt completely accurate but there was so much there it couldnt all be wrong. I didnt actually read the report. Its still available today...
..also all of this flows out of false doctrine from William Branham in the 1950s brought in dominion theology (now and the now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns, latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation the new apostolic reformation) through to Paul Cain (child prodigee of Branham) & Bob Jones to todays Bethel...
So if you were involved in this stuff you couldnt have been reading your bible that closely as red flags would have emerged. Having said that its not that simple as there is a spirit behind this stuff that blinds people. John Andrew Collins is interesting and his attempts to deprogramme after leaving the Branham cult...
This is excellent and wish it had come sooner. It's my prayer that indeed all your recommendations of a thorough investigations be done, that light will expel the darkness.
Please Jack, PLEASE release what really happened with Paul Cain with detail. The pastor at our church supports Paul and quotes him and believes he was a true man of God. If the church knew what he actually did to young men (and for how long it happened) , I don't believe they would follow and revere him. Please, it is your responsibility to shine the light so people can get out of this deception. People still think he was mostly a godly man who fell sometimes.
This does not excuse Paul Cain or MB for that matter, but aren’t we all “men (women) who are godly and sometimes fall?” The difference is only that he was a public figure. Maybe God is just much more kind than we can wrap our minds around?
Thank you for sharing this important perspective, Jack.
Your experiences with the Vineyard and John Wimber will always be special to our story. Having enjoyed the grace from the Vineyard that renewed the power we enjoyed in the Jesus movement was wonderful. Different to be sure, but oh, the healing anointing!!! We truly had a few short years of renewal, and because we were not associated with the iterations of Bickles KCF we were never caught up in the "serious mixture" that permeated this ministry and emanated from it. Part of Gruen's testimony is true for sure. Bickle had returned to Kansas City from St. Louis just as the Jesus movement wound down and used the people who remained as a springboard to begin KCF. It was two-dimensional from the start as its focus was never about discipling people over time but about "the ministry." Mike is a gatherer, period. My wife and I said no thank you after his first few meetings, although I was duly impressed by Jones since I carry a prophetic anointing myself. So, when time passed and Mike was able to connect with Wimber, we were shocked. But the so-called Kansas City prophets, especially Paul and to a lesser degree Bob, influenced the Vineyard instead of the wonderful grace of the Vineyard coming upon what was now called "Metro Vineyard" here in KC. We were devastated. I have a 1990 to a large gathering at KCF/Metro in which John said that the anointing "bounced off" and they would work through this. He was so taken by the power of the prophetic that he discounted the very fact that a powerful religious spirit at KCF/Metro repelled the healing anointing they were seeking to impart. I have a recording of John Wimber's final message detailing this. So, the damage after the "prophetic" entered the Vineyard movement seemed to coincide with the shocking and bizarre toleration and promotion of mixture at Toronto. As they say, the rest is history. Sadly, the entire renewal movement had been steered away from the word of God as was always the standard until the late 80's into the early 90's. We saw from the beginning that vast amounts of false prophecy by the rank and file and the same with manifestations began to be tolerated and promoted to obtain "the true". I have video corroborating all of this. In the earlier movements, time and care was taken to correct and train people in all of the gifts. That's not the practice of so many today. May we all return to scriptural purity and power to lead many to righteousness.
Thank you Jack for writing this statement. Thank you also for adding that chapter about Paul Cain to your book. I very much appreciated that chapter. I remember Rick Joyner saying how Paul had a scary level of anointing. I was never sure what he meant by that, but it sounded like he was saying that Paul's gifting made him able to take advantage of people in ways well beyond standard clergy abuse - which is bad enough. Thank you also for posting the email from Mike Bickle. It has similar earmarks of a manipulative style seen in other recent emails of his. We certainly could use an increased measure of discernment in the body of Christ. We could also well use some place where victims could make reports of abuse - a body that would have a level of respect, integrity, and authority enough to follow up on them - if only to eventually make the reports public in the cases where there is a refusal to allow proper investigations.
One other thing. We could well use a book that would detail how the body of Christ can become more discerning in these areas, and what types of abuse to watch out for. How did the church handle this subject in the past? How has the church failed in this area? And how can the church provide structures to prevent these things going forward?
Thank you for writing this. I was saved during the Jesus Movement and soon after involved in a Church where the Pastor was committing Clergy Sexual Abuse with several women in his congregation. My family and I were disfellowshipped after a meeting with the Pastor and his wife for asking questions about some of the leadership abuse and control we were coming up against. People were told from the pulpit to stay away from us as we were rebellious and bitter.
A couple years later it came out that the Pastor had been sleeping with several women in the church. He went on to do it again in at least two other churches.. he had done it before he was sent to ours after being “restored”. I wish I could say we felt vindicated and were restored to the Body of Christ. Even though each of us in our own ways have tried to fit back in to different local churches we never found healing as talking about is immediately met with you must still be bitter or unforgiving.
I attended a Deliverance Conference last year at the church where this all took place. Many people there that had been wounded and disillusioned years ago. The SA Pastors son is well known in the Deliverance Ministry. He is still friends with the current pastor. He mentioned from the Pulpit that his father had a “Ministry Failing” at one time and needed deliverance but that he had gone on to be with the Lord and was now in heaven so he wasn’t going to mar his name.
After the conference while gathered with my sister and some old friends the current Pastor came up and told us how someone had come up to the SA Pastors son and wanted to know what he was going to do about all the people in this town that his father destroyed. He couldn’t believe the gall of someone saying that to the SA Pastors son. After all he had nothing to do with what his dad did.. it was years ago and under the blood.. he was now in heaven and his ministry was more than his failings etc etc.There was no care or concern for any of his victims…
There must be thousands of people like the man asking what is going to be done about all the people destroyed by this? People like me and my family that have had no where to go and no hope of deliverance or healing from the trauma and abuse even 50 years later! I went in to that conference with high hopes that this might be my way back.. how can I go back and get deliverance or healing if I’m not even allowed to speak of it?
I’m hoping the IHOPKC will set a precedent and all the “little” Charismatic Churches will follow. As it is currently, another small church in my area that does 24 hour prayer modeled after IHOP is still siding with Mike Bickle. My best friend is one of his most adamant supporters.. I’m not looking forward to going through this again..the shunning and spiritual abuse as I refuse to agree to a Sexual Predator. all I see is history repeating itself. I can’t wait to see where Mike Bickle Pops up next.
This took incredible courage, humility and determination to protect the flock of Christ. This is an authentic prophetic word. Prophecy has often been taught to be limited to only a “positive” word for someone…when both Biblically and in practice, it is sometimes corrective. God bless you for your enormous courage to speak a truly prophetic word, one which is far more difficult to speak, than a “positive” one. Thank you.
I was in Whitefish, Montana when Paul Cain was brought in to “prophecy.” Many of us thought his performance a lot like Carnak on Johnny Carson. What followed, you know all about and I am so sorry for your loss. I am following this situation because it has been 30-years of suffering for many of us who were there deceived. I am asking the Lord for mercy on the survivors and thank you for manning up, making this statement clear.
Thank you for writing this and for being thorough in your response. Thank you for your vulnerability and courage to stand up and raise your voice. I was newly arrived at IHOPKC when Paul Cain was being confronted and exposed. The whole thing touched me in such a deep way and meaningful way. I was only 24 years old. I ended up saying apart of the Nightwatch staff for 6 years and then 2 years as part of Hope City. I left just as an internal bomb was taking place. Some of my dearest friends were at the center of the conflict. I was heartbroken that leadership treated my friends with such opposition of disrespect, meanness and anger. All in the name of truth. But it wasn’t about truth. It was about control. I was tired when I left. Tired of religion. I was depressed. Tormented by the heavy yoke of pious teaching such as the “need for voluntary lovers.” I needed restoration, healing and rest from the abusive nature of the community at IHOP. It took me 7 years to feel fully recovered. Nearly took me a year of healing for a year of ministry on staff there. I went to years of therapy and stayed on the outskirts of leadership in any church community that I was apart of. I never even thought to mention to my closest and dearest friends what I was going through those years until a month ago. It just goes to show the level of intrusion into my personal life Mike’s leadership had. Even after all the years of torment that finally resulted in my deliverance and healing from a religious spirit, it took me 20 years to realize it was ok to tell my friends what I went through during my time on staff. I only full realized it when Jane Doe came forward in October 2023. For this, I am grateful. The exposure finally gave me the freedom to renounce Mike Bickle’s authority in my life as well as that of leaders under him. A weight I hadn’t realized I was carrying lifted. I’ve felt vindicated and validated that I was being dramatic for disagreeing with things I saw going on there during my time. I felt validated in a fresh way for the pain I processed and shed. I feel deep sadness for all those that I know and love who are still there and who are slowing rising from the ashes. We need your voice. I am grateful. I forgive you for not taking the stand you felt in your heart years ago. I release you from unintentionally overlooking Mike’s red flags. Any one of us involved with him and his ministries have fallen to his charm and whatever else has been at work. I do not hold you responsible. I’m just grateful for the Light that has brought exposure. God is wise and is helping us all. Now, it’s time for all of us involved to call for Stuart Greaves, Dave Sliker and Lenny LaGuardia to come forward. They must own their mistakes. They must publicly repent for mishandling this situation and they MUST be willing to expose themselves in the parts they’ve played whatever they may be. Otherwise, we are all doomed to assume the worst of them and they put us who were under them in a place of a longer process of healing than is necessary. Yes, let just roll like a river and a never ending stream. God, help us.
I forgot to mention that it’s been curious to me how the exposure of Paul Cain has hardly been brought up in light of MB being exposed. I’ve long been waiting to hear what someone has to say about it in context to our current situation. Again, thank you. This is a kindness and comfort.
Leah…. Wow. I truly appreciate reading your comment and couldn’t agree more. Well-articulated.
Jack, thank you for being brave and going public. But there is one thing that really concerns me. Mike Bickle's abusive behavior goes back to the 1980s. In the intervening 40 years, he must have met thousands of leaders from the worldwide charismatic movement. Yet no-one had a prophetic revelation or word of knowledge that, behind closed doors, Bickle was a sexual predator. What does that say about the continuationist belief that the supernatural gifts are active today? If the people who claim to be models of "spirit-filled" Christianity can't "do the stuff", to use John Wimber's famous phrase, it suggests that, in reality, no-one can.
Dave, great point! The same thing happened with Todd Bentley. During Lakeland “revival,” many charismatic apostles gave magnificent words over TB while he was committing adultery and doing drugs/alcohol. Where was their supernatural discernment?!? God didn’t speak to even one of these super apostles?
And there was very little spoken introspection from the rest of the charismatic US crowd. It wasn’t addressed nationally except for 2-3 people in that circle.
I am not a cessationist *and* I have very level of mistrust in current charismatic leadership and their “words” because of these continuous issues.
Thanks, Sandra, yes, I am aware of what happened with Todd Bentley. I think with him it was a relatively small number of leaders. Mike Bickle's circle of associates must have been vastly more, given that he was the leader of a major ministry for decades, and before that was part of the Vineyard movement. I was a charismatic but became a cessationist following much study - basically I realised that the claims of the charismatic and pentecostal movements are all false and the miraculous gifts are not in operation today. Happy to discuss further if you want.
If the gifts are no longer active then how can you explain the healing I received from chronic headaches. One day, I was living 6 years in daily never ending headaches and couldn’t sleep longer than 6 hours at a time. I received prayer. A few days later the chronic headaches were gone and I could sleep 8+ hours. It’s been 20 years since that healing and I am still free of it. That my brother was most certainly a miracle.
...the thing is with Todd Bentley, the first video I saw of him (2008) he was saying that the same angel that started William Branhams ministry started his. I immediately knew he was off as angels do not start ministries, the Holy Spirit does. Also i knew that William Branham was seriously off, brought dominion theology (latter rain, NAR) into America & had new age practices...
Then I managed to get Todd Bentley's theology off of his web site (it was only there for a few days), he was into Serpent Seed theology and he had some theologian address why it was ok to pray to angels (idolatory, our trust is in Jesus, not angels) using The Angel of The Lord from the OT (who has to be the pre-incarnate Jesus as people worshipped Him).
Then you had Bill Johnson's lot inaugurating Todd Bentley as a prophet, not just any old prophet but an NAR (although I knew he was off I hadnt joined up the dots until 2019 that this was a continuation of dominion theology) prophet with more power than the original 12, no less !! (see Holly Pivecs book - the counterfeit kingdom).
So Bill Johnson and co obviously didnt care one iota what Todd Bentleys theology was (probably because they believe the same). Today you can see it in their new age book The Physics of Heaven, even Bob Jones has a chapter in it entitled Vibrating in harmony with God...
I think NAR are going to be part of the end times apostasy, their dominion beliefs of bringing heaven to earth now BEFORE Jesus returns, ruling everyone through a 7 mountain mandate and very lose denomination structure although tight at the top with no accountability lends itself to this...
Any church can just bring itself under the apostle Bill Johnsons authority or any other apostle who is signed up to their list of apostles...
So there are two sides to the supernatural, unfortunately the other side has made great inrodes into the pentecostal church due to lack of discernment and people speaking out. In my generation there has been an attitude of its wrong to speak out against anyone as that is judging.... while ignoring other accountability scriptures...
Dave, while I understand where you are coming from I have to disagree. The fact that “no one” received a prophetic word about Mike Bickle doesn’t invalidate the gift of prophecy. Paul states that the gift of prophecy is meant for the edification and the building up of the church. That doesn’t make anyone who prophecies a Prophet. We need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. There were people who expressed concerns about MB. They even gave specifics. I cannot begin to try to define why it didn’t work. But I personally did sit for many years under his leadership. I discerned there were things a miss yet is still got caught in that web. Does that invalidate my own ability to hear? Prophecy and discernment require a great amount of wisdom and care. Those attributes take time to build. MB was surrounded by those who were mostly younger than him. That’s a significant point. When I arrived at IHOPKC in 2004, I was older than the majority. Most of MB’s senior leadership were in their 30s and 40s. By the time, IHOP started MB had already been an international minister for 2 decades. So, it’s easy to say that we all should have known. But that’s what ppl also say to a mother who’s husband has been molesting her child for 5 years. “How did you not know?” It’s devastating. We just didn’t know.
Yes they did, not exactly that Bickle was a sexual predator but the Kansas City Prophets wanted Clifford Hill (UK Charismatic) to do the forward to their book ‘Some Said it Thundered’ by David Pytches but he refused as he discerned an evil spirit operating among them especially Bob Jones. He warned John Wimber at the time but he refused to listed, I think he had been too wowed by Cain’s prophecies. The fact is you can also get accurate prophesies from the other side.
https://prophecytoday.uk/study/teaching-articles/item/1062-blessing-the-church-xxvi.html
Clifford Hill would describe himself as a modern day prophet. It was through his magazine that i became aware of William Branham (brought in dominion theology /latter rain/ NAR) and realised that Paul Cain was a child prodigee of Branham... (back in the 1990's).
Clifford Hill is no cessationist and his church is one of the livest i have visited back in 1983 in Harrow, UK.
I thought dominion theology had gone away and only realised it had morphed into a new name (NAR) in 2019 after Clifford Hill went public after a day of prayer at Wembley.
https://prophecytoday.uk/comment/church-issues/item/1351-the-new-apostolic-reformation-an-overview.html
Also you have Derek Prince who was on stage with William Branham who went public in the 1990s that he believed that Branham moved in the demonic in his book Protection against Deception.
John Andrew Collins historical research shows that Derek Prince and Ernie Baxter separated themselves from Branham, its documented in their Voice of Healing magazine that they found recently.
So definitely the prophetic gifts are there but very few really walk in them. Another person who does i would say is David Hathaway, he accurately prophesied that the Berlin wall would come down. In 2000 he prophesied the rape of europe by Islam which you can see happening today. His You Tube video The Rape of Europe goes into that.
I am sure that Jack would have a theologically and pastorally sound answer for you (I do heartily recommend his books!)
Here are my thoughts: Paul tells us that we know in part and prophesy in part (1 Corinthians 13:8-12). It is not given to prophets to know everything, only what the Lord reveals at a certain time and place in various ways.
Prophetic revelation (what the Lord shows a believer) needs also to be discerned carefully to understand the meaning and application; the Scriptures indicate this should be tested within the body (1 Thessalonians 5:19-22). The intent of prophet ministry is to build up the body (1 Corinthians 14:3-5 indicates some features to expect).
I do believe that the gifts of the Spirit are for today, still available as a gift if God’s grace to us (see 1 Corinthians 12:4-11), the emphasis is on the working of the Spirit as he chooses and in us to pursue spiritual gifts. We also need to grow in our abilities to hear and discern. They.
"What does that say about the continuationist belief that the supernatural gifts are active today?"
Excellent question! Here's the possible answers;
1) God didn't care that Mr. Bickle was having sex with teenagers. . . .hence, no prophetic warning!
2) The Gift of Prophecy/Word of Knowledge/Discerning of Spirits isn't for today, so even if God was quite displeased with Mr. Bickle's sexual abuse, there was not anything he could do about it.
3) The Gift of Prophecy/Word of Knowledge/Discerning of Spirits is for today -- but the people surrounding Mr. Bickle, and the "Spiritual Superstars" such as Elite Eight Elect Elders who issued their edict expelling him from the elite SuperSaint category, don't have any of those gifts. . . else they would have raised questions decades ago.
Which one is it?
It’s not that black and white.
..it has to be number 3. People like Clifford Hill in the UK discerned... he warned John Wimber at the time about an evil spirit operating among the KCP's but he didnt listen..
...i also think people knew without needing any prophetic gift... but many people would have been scared to speak out...
Im in the UK but i knew that Mike Bickle has to be off as he was the minister of the Kansas city prophets who went round prophesying over churches to come under their authority or close. I didnt know about the sexual allegations but I knew that Bickle's moral character could not be that great if he was allowing this to go on...
We had Ernie Gruens report that brought this out. It sounds like it wasnt completely accurate but there was so much there it couldnt all be wrong. I didnt actually read the report. Its still available today...
https://www.banner.org.uk/summaries/sum_kcp.html
..also all of this flows out of false doctrine from William Branham in the 1950s brought in dominion theology (now and the now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns, latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation the new apostolic reformation) through to Paul Cain (child prodigee of Branham) & Bob Jones to todays Bethel...
So if you were involved in this stuff you couldnt have been reading your bible that closely as red flags would have emerged. Having said that its not that simple as there is a spirit behind this stuff that blinds people. John Andrew Collins is interesting and his attempts to deprogramme after leaving the Branham cult...
This is excellent and wish it had come sooner. It's my prayer that indeed all your recommendations of a thorough investigations be done, that light will expel the darkness.
Please Jack, PLEASE release what really happened with Paul Cain with detail. The pastor at our church supports Paul and quotes him and believes he was a true man of God. If the church knew what he actually did to young men (and for how long it happened) , I don't believe they would follow and revere him. Please, it is your responsibility to shine the light so people can get out of this deception. People still think he was mostly a godly man who fell sometimes.
This does not excuse Paul Cain or MB for that matter, but aren’t we all “men (women) who are godly and sometimes fall?” The difference is only that he was a public figure. Maybe God is just much more kind than we can wrap our minds around?
Thank you for sharing this important perspective, Jack.
Your experiences with the Vineyard and John Wimber will always be special to our story. Having enjoyed the grace from the Vineyard that renewed the power we enjoyed in the Jesus movement was wonderful. Different to be sure, but oh, the healing anointing!!! We truly had a few short years of renewal, and because we were not associated with the iterations of Bickles KCF we were never caught up in the "serious mixture" that permeated this ministry and emanated from it. Part of Gruen's testimony is true for sure. Bickle had returned to Kansas City from St. Louis just as the Jesus movement wound down and used the people who remained as a springboard to begin KCF. It was two-dimensional from the start as its focus was never about discipling people over time but about "the ministry." Mike is a gatherer, period. My wife and I said no thank you after his first few meetings, although I was duly impressed by Jones since I carry a prophetic anointing myself. So, when time passed and Mike was able to connect with Wimber, we were shocked. But the so-called Kansas City prophets, especially Paul and to a lesser degree Bob, influenced the Vineyard instead of the wonderful grace of the Vineyard coming upon what was now called "Metro Vineyard" here in KC. We were devastated. I have a 1990 to a large gathering at KCF/Metro in which John said that the anointing "bounced off" and they would work through this. He was so taken by the power of the prophetic that he discounted the very fact that a powerful religious spirit at KCF/Metro repelled the healing anointing they were seeking to impart. I have a recording of John Wimber's final message detailing this. So, the damage after the "prophetic" entered the Vineyard movement seemed to coincide with the shocking and bizarre toleration and promotion of mixture at Toronto. As they say, the rest is history. Sadly, the entire renewal movement had been steered away from the word of God as was always the standard until the late 80's into the early 90's. We saw from the beginning that vast amounts of false prophecy by the rank and file and the same with manifestations began to be tolerated and promoted to obtain "the true". I have video corroborating all of this. In the earlier movements, time and care was taken to correct and train people in all of the gifts. That's not the practice of so many today. May we all return to scriptural purity and power to lead many to righteousness.
Thank you Jack for writing this statement. Thank you also for adding that chapter about Paul Cain to your book. I very much appreciated that chapter. I remember Rick Joyner saying how Paul had a scary level of anointing. I was never sure what he meant by that, but it sounded like he was saying that Paul's gifting made him able to take advantage of people in ways well beyond standard clergy abuse - which is bad enough. Thank you also for posting the email from Mike Bickle. It has similar earmarks of a manipulative style seen in other recent emails of his. We certainly could use an increased measure of discernment in the body of Christ. We could also well use some place where victims could make reports of abuse - a body that would have a level of respect, integrity, and authority enough to follow up on them - if only to eventually make the reports public in the cases where there is a refusal to allow proper investigations.
One other thing. We could well use a book that would detail how the body of Christ can become more discerning in these areas, and what types of abuse to watch out for. How did the church handle this subject in the past? How has the church failed in this area? And how can the church provide structures to prevent these things going forward?
Please seriously consider writing such a book.
Thank you for writing this. I was saved during the Jesus Movement and soon after involved in a Church where the Pastor was committing Clergy Sexual Abuse with several women in his congregation. My family and I were disfellowshipped after a meeting with the Pastor and his wife for asking questions about some of the leadership abuse and control we were coming up against. People were told from the pulpit to stay away from us as we were rebellious and bitter.
A couple years later it came out that the Pastor had been sleeping with several women in the church. He went on to do it again in at least two other churches.. he had done it before he was sent to ours after being “restored”. I wish I could say we felt vindicated and were restored to the Body of Christ. Even though each of us in our own ways have tried to fit back in to different local churches we never found healing as talking about is immediately met with you must still be bitter or unforgiving.
I attended a Deliverance Conference last year at the church where this all took place. Many people there that had been wounded and disillusioned years ago. The SA Pastors son is well known in the Deliverance Ministry. He is still friends with the current pastor. He mentioned from the Pulpit that his father had a “Ministry Failing” at one time and needed deliverance but that he had gone on to be with the Lord and was now in heaven so he wasn’t going to mar his name.
After the conference while gathered with my sister and some old friends the current Pastor came up and told us how someone had come up to the SA Pastors son and wanted to know what he was going to do about all the people in this town that his father destroyed. He couldn’t believe the gall of someone saying that to the SA Pastors son. After all he had nothing to do with what his dad did.. it was years ago and under the blood.. he was now in heaven and his ministry was more than his failings etc etc.There was no care or concern for any of his victims…
There must be thousands of people like the man asking what is going to be done about all the people destroyed by this? People like me and my family that have had no where to go and no hope of deliverance or healing from the trauma and abuse even 50 years later! I went in to that conference with high hopes that this might be my way back.. how can I go back and get deliverance or healing if I’m not even allowed to speak of it?
I’m hoping the IHOPKC will set a precedent and all the “little” Charismatic Churches will follow. As it is currently, another small church in my area that does 24 hour prayer modeled after IHOP is still siding with Mike Bickle. My best friend is one of his most adamant supporters.. I’m not looking forward to going through this again..the shunning and spiritual abuse as I refuse to agree to a Sexual Predator. all I see is history repeating itself. I can’t wait to see where Mike Bickle Pops up next.
Thank you Jack,
This took incredible courage, humility and determination to protect the flock of Christ. This is an authentic prophetic word. Prophecy has often been taught to be limited to only a “positive” word for someone…when both Biblically and in practice, it is sometimes corrective. God bless you for your enormous courage to speak a truly prophetic word, one which is far more difficult to speak, than a “positive” one. Thank you.
Thank you, Jack. I agree with your call to full and complete accountability. You are appreciated and greatly missed.
Thank you. This gives me hope.
I was in Whitefish, Montana when Paul Cain was brought in to “prophecy.” Many of us thought his performance a lot like Carnak on Johnny Carson. What followed, you know all about and I am so sorry for your loss. I am following this situation because it has been 30-years of suffering for many of us who were there deceived. I am asking the Lord for mercy on the survivors and thank you for manning up, making this statement clear.
Excellent article! Your humility, transparency and honesty are much needed in this situation. Thank you.
You should have remained a cessationist. The Kansas City Prophets are master manipulators.